I disagree. Paul himself is the penner of the rapture. If the rapture is so recent, then why is the bible so clear on it?

Oooooooooh brother, I just got through reading that entire thread on rapture, We know well enough each others position don't we?

Bro Tim,
If you believe that the church is raptured in Rev.4, take a look at Rev.6:11 and explain who these "fellow servants" are, that get saved.

I think so Jim, which is why I have not posted much on it recently. When I say raptureism, I should perhaps have said "pretibulation raptureism." I think we all believe we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, even preterists, that I have contact with, believe that. I don't tend to use the word "dispensationist" because in books I have read there are those who use the word dispenstion who are not futureists.

We once had a pastor, now gone to be with the Lord, who told of when he was at Bible School, just after the war, he used to go with a group of students "Gospel Tekking" with a handcart round our county. Stayng in various church buildings, and preaching in the churches. On one ocassion one of his colleagues preached on the second comming, and someone came up afterwards and said they had never heard that before. "Doesn't your minister believe in the second coming?" the preacher said. someone overhearing said: "That man doesn't believe in the first coming."

As to your point, Jim that historicism is newer. I cannot find much in the way of that teaching in the protestant church before Irving's group introduced it in the early 1800s. However Justin Martyr, Tertullian and others taught he which letteth was the Roman Emperor and the what, the Roman Empire Paul said he told the Church these things, so "You know" he said. Tertullian said "We know."

I have just been reading E B Elliott's Horae Apocatiptrica on the reformation in Rev 10 and 11, and it is amazing how each small detail was fulfilled historically.

I did find a couple of copies of this book on the net, one was the 5th edition at about $1,700 and the other a leather bound 3rd edition at about $4,000. The only electronic version I have found is on the "Amazing Christian Library" which comes on 36 CDs or 6 DVDs and will cost you $300, but contains enough reading matter, I should think, to last the millenium.

Jim, as you say, I have already made my points, perhaps not very well at times. So we know where we are.

Love in Christ

Actually it is not amazing at all, the market is flooded with hundreds of thousands of attempts to correlate mans imaginings with eschatology prophecy. The problem is, is that none of it even closely resembles a contextual approach to the Word of God. It is al allegorized and approached metaphorically. Allegories, symbolism, and metaphors, are easily identified by the context of scripture.

The idea of a pre-tribulational rapture is spelled out in scripture, and is very easy to grasp. If one goes back and reads the scripture I gave for the entire timeline, then it is clear as a bell.

Love in Christ,

Jim

You might be afloat now, but the scholars are boring more holes all the time. What kind of ship is the next generation going to have? NIV(bad-missing verses)->TNIV(worse-altering names)->XNIV(next-who knows?); NKJV(omit this, omit that)
Remember you were brought up on a firm foundation.

This post was last modified: Fri May 09, 2008 09:43 AM by Brother Tim.

James, I haven't said that I believe that the church is raptured in Rev 4. Because I question the 7 year great tribulation, I haven't built a specific timeline. I currently see that the church will face increased tribulation until the return of the LORD to gather His children and to bring wrath on the world. (I don't know what label that fits)

You can take this over to the other thread about the NKJV, but I don't know what it omits. That seems unlikely since it uses the same textual basis as the KJV. What omissions are there in the NKJV? I know that it footnotes different mss readings, but that is hardly an omission.

I label it wrong. Actually you are not to far off from the truth. Prior to the Rapture, there will be an increase in apostasy and persecution (also called "tribulation" when not referring to a specified time called the Tribulation). You just left out the Rapture and the 7 year Tribulation to shortly follow.

I'll leave the comments here to maintain the conversation from previous posts. The NKJV was an example of scholars damaging the text. My point was that the scholars were boring the holes. The damage done by the scholars in the NKJV is the placement of footnotes identifying words, phrases, or verses that have been omitted in some mss, particularly the NU. The reader is then left the option to choose the best reading without further explanation. Since an omission is clearly indicative of an error either in the text or in the footnote source, then the confidence of the reader may be weakened, and another hole is bored in the hull.

Please correct me, but I don't see where the phrase "the Tribulation" is in the Scriptures as opposed to just "tribulation(s)". Ditto for "great" vs. "the Great".

Read Matt. 24:21 & 29 for great tribulation and the tribulation. But the fact is, it has many different names.

The ESV says in some footnotes, "Other authorities add...." Meaning we are right but others, ie KJV. have added to the text. They don't accept, of course that they have left something out.

This is reciprical. You of course don't accept that the KJV added anything.

There is no indication in the above verses that a specific title is being given for a specific event. No "The Great Tribulation", No "The Tribulation".
The terminology to me is a description of the conditions, not a designation of the event by title.

Check your KJV, Brother Tim. Even verse 29 presents it as "the tribulation". It is definite. It is specific. It is clear to me even with a translation .

This post was last modified: Sun May 11, 2008 03:02 PM by Greektim.

Look at the text, Brother, look at the text! (and my post while you are at it.) No capitals!

If I were to say, "I waited until after the storm on Saturday to make my trip," would I be isolating that storm from any other storm other than giving a time frame? If, however, I said that I was in Gainesville when The Storm of the Century hit the coast, then I would be describing a specific event.

Our ancestors in the faith had to endure the tribulation of their day, and there is coming times of great tribulation in the future.