I promise I am not trying to start an argument here, and if it leads to that I will close the topic, but I feel that while most of our brethren that we have been discussing here with, we agree mostly, but I know the difference between us, and wanted to start a topic about which I know we will most likely disagree, but let's keep it benign, as I do not see this as a fundamental difference.

Please discuss you views on the titled subject and give scripture basis for those beliefs.

May the Lord put a watch at our mouths and minds and a guard at our lips and fingers.

Love in Christ,

Jim

Could first ask that you give a basic definition for each so that we have a common starting point?

Wow, that is actually not an easy summary, but I will do my best.

Dispensation in a nutshell:

Dispensation - The system by which anything is administered. In Christian terms, looking back, it refers to a period in history whereby God dealt with man in a specific way. (Conscience, Law, Grace)

Dispensationalism - A system of theology that sees God working with man in different ways during different dispensations. While 'Dispensations' are not ages, but stewardships, or administrations, we tend to see them now as ages since we look back on specific time periods when they were in force.

Dispensationalism is distinguished by three key principles.
1 - A clear distinction between God's program for Israel and God's program for the Church.
2 - A consistent and regular use of a literal principle of interpretation
3 - The understanding of the purpose of God as His own glory rather than the salvation of mankind.

It's teaching on eschatologysays that the Christian Church is a "parenthesis", that is, an interruption in God’s divine dealings with the Jewish people, when the Gospel began to be preached to the Gentiles, but that God’s continued care for the Jewish people will be revealed after the end of the Church Age (or Dispensation), when Israel will be restored to their land, and then they will accept Jesus as their Messiah, as is recorded in Zechariah 12:8-10. It believes there will be a rapture occuring before the Second Coming.

A greater breakdown of specific dispensations is possible, giving most traditional Dispensationalists seven recognizable dispensations.

Innocence - Adam
Conscience - After man sinned, up to the flood
Government - After the flood, man allowed to eat meat, death penalty instituted
Promise - Abraham up to Moses and the giving of the Law
Law - Moses to the cross
Grace - The cross to the Millennial Kingdom
Millennial Kingdom - A 1000 year reign of Christ on earth centered in Jerusalem

Covenant Theology is a conceptual overview and interpretive framework for understanding the overall flow of the Bible. Covenantalism uses the theological concept of "Covenant" as an organizing principle for Christian theology.

Typically, Covenant Theology views the history of God's dealings with mankind in all of history, from Creation to Fall to Redemption to Consummation, under the framework of three overarching theological covenants:

the Covenant of Redemption
the Covenant of Works
the Covenant of Grace


Covenant theology first sees a Covenant of Works administered with Adam in the Garden of Eden. Upon Adam's failure, God established the Covenant of Grace in the promised seed (Gen 3:15), and shows his redeeming care in clothing Adam and Eve in garments of skin -- perhaps picturing the first instance of animal sacrifice. The specific covenants after the fall of Adam are seen as administered under the overarching theological Covenant of Grace and include:

The Noahic Covenant, found in Genesis 9.

The Abrahamic Covenant, found in Genesis 15.

The Mosaic Covenant, found in Exodus 19-24.

The Palestinian Covenant -- an unconditional covenant enlarging upon the Abrahamic Covenant promising the seed of Abraham eternal possession in the land (Deuteronomy 30:1-10),

The Davidic Covenant, found in 2 Samuel 7 establishing David and his lineage as the rightful kings of Israel and Judah and extending the covenant of Abraham to David's lineage.

The New Covenant, which is most clearly predicted by the prophet Jeremiah (Jer. 31:34). At the Last Supper, Jesus alludes to this prophecy, as well as to prophecies such as Isaiah 49:8, when he says that the cup of the Passover meal is "the New Covenant in [his] blood." This use of the Old Testament prophecy is developed further in the Epistle to the Hebrews (see especially chs. 8-10). The term "New Testament" comes from the Latin translation of the Greek New Covenant and is most often used for the collection of books in the Bible, can also refer to the New Covenant as a theological concept.

Since Covenant Theology today is mainly Protestant and Reformed in its outlook, proponents view Baptism and The Lord's Supper as the only two sacraments, which are called "church ordinances" by some to avoid some of the sacerdotal connotations of the word "sacrament." The sacraments are a sign and a seal of the Covenant of Grace. Along with the preached word, they are identified as an ordinary Means of Grace for salvation. The benefits of these rites do not occur ex opere operato (working in and of themselves), but through the power of the Holy Spirit as they are received by faith.

I tend to lean towards the Dispensational approach to Bible interpretation for a number of reasons but I will give two.

1) In the OT the jews were told "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", but in the NT Jesus cut across that. As the Bible has no contradictions it is clear that God must have been dealing in two different ways with two distinct groups of people. We could also list the fact that in the OT a man was stoned to death for gathering sticks on the Sabbath but in the NT we are told in Romans 14 that keeping a day special is for the individual.

2) In the OT we read of many prophecies that clearly point to the jews returning to Israel.

I could list other points but do not wish to hog the discussion.

Bob

Just one more point very quickly: Covenant Theology has no answer to the miracle of modern Israel, her founding in May 1948 and continued survival against overwhelming odds.

Bob

Where does the return of Israel in 1948, in unbelief, fit in Scripture prophecy, dispensationally or otherwise?

Dispensationalism is generally regarded as futurism, hoewever, Grattan Guinness who was a historicist frequently referred to "dispensations".

I think we can believe that Israel, returning to the land is a fulfillment of prophecy without belonging to either camp.

Bob, Good to see you yesterday, your son is certainly a powerful preacher.

Well said Davo

Dave,

Many thanks for your kind comments regarding my son Ben.

When he was a young boy he used to go to his room Sunday afternoons and set up a "pulpit" and preach! Even then we could see where his heart lay!

Bob

Brother Tim, you asked:

I am sorry I have not answered this question.

The return of Israels land did not fulfill any prophecy, but it is leading to the point of the end of the diaspora at this time. there will be another diaspora, but we will not be here to see it. They will begin the rebuilding of the temple at some point so that the prophecy will be fulfilled of the abomination of the desolation. All of the armies must rise against Israel also and they have to be someplace for this to occur.

Many of my brothers disagree with my view of eschatology, but that is fine by me.

Events are leading up to the rapture quickly.

Love in Christ,

Jim

I am afraid to say this, but it is probably true. As adament as most are about the KJV here is comprable of how much I am for Dispensationalism. I refer to myself as a Strict (or Refined) Dispensationalist. To quote one of my profs, "The Church is not Israel; it just flat isn't!" Amen Dr. Bowman.

Ecclesiology and Eschatology are 2 of my favorite fields of theology. Since we are in the Church age and a 1/3 of Scriptures are prophetical/eschatological, then I feel these 2 areas are important and should not be underemphasized. I think Covenant Theology (and their presuppositional ideas of a covenant of grace and their subjective allegorical hermeneutic) is detramental to correct Biblical understanding. It is parallel to Reformed Theology and that is exactly where it leads.

Like you brother, doctrinal-wise (is that a word?) eschatology is my favorite subject. I do happen to agree with you about dispensationalism. I am a dispensationalist, but I do not know what a "Strict" dispensationalist is. Can you please tell me what the difference is?

It is a term that I am coining. I can already tell you that you are not a Strict/Refined Dispo. but a Classic Dispo (from the old Dallas days). This growing (but not new) view holds to 2 major refinements (thus the name "refined") w/in the Dispensational view. First is a consistent view of the Kingdom of God having only 2 aspects - a Universal Sovereignty aspect & a Messianic Kingdom aspect. Even in the NT, that does not change (most if not all references to the Kingdom in the NT is a reference to the future Kingdom whether called "of God" or "of the heavens"). Second is a consistent idea of the New Covenant having no relationship to the Church whatsoever. It is only fulfilled by Israel (whom it was made to) and any similurities that the Church has w/ New Covenant blessings are seen as only that - simularities. Christ being the mediator of the New Covenant and His blood being the basis for it would explain some of the similarities (like Spirit Indwelling). But there are other Pneumatological blessings experienced only by the Church that would argue for a distinction of the Church from the NT (like Spirit Baptism).

These refinements come primarily as a response to the Progressive Dispensational views being popularized in evangelicalsim (PDism holds to a partial fulfillment of the KIngdom and the New & Davidic covenants with the Church and so in essence is Covenant Premillennialism in closet form). Thus PDism lowers the distinction between the Church and Israel and does not make an arguement for a Pre-Trib rapture. That is why I call it "strict." It takes a very hard line between the Church and Israel and a Pre-Trib rapture.

Just who makes up all these terms anyhow? Do ou think that 95% of Bible-reading Christians know were they fit?