Brethren,

The topic I want to breach is core values. Like Bible versions. I believe the Bible Version is one of many root values a Christian holds to. When one of those root values is out of wack, some ware up the tree on one of the branches there will be some deformed fruit so to speak. Even though many branches appear to be healthy with good doctrine, if you keep looking close enough something will be strange.

I know there has been much discussion on John MacArthur and it is not my intention to “beat a dead horse” if you will. But He is a well known Preacher that uses a perversion of God’s Word. It is no doubt that some of his doctrine is flawed.

I am by no means stating that just because someone uses the Authorized King James Bible that they teach nothing false, for I have seen first hand those who error greatly. After all we are all imperfect humans. My point is if any of us went to visit a church and the word was preached out of the NKJV, NIV, NASV, NLT (take your pick) we would not hesitate to get out of there faster than we walked in.

Another core or root issue is music. If I walked into a church that used the KJB and saw drums, guitars, etc. This would be another evident sign that something is greatly wrong.

I’m sure many Pastors have good intentions but they either want the church to grow for the wrong reasons, or give into the rebellious people’s way.

What other core issues do you believe sends a church down the road to worldliness?

I've been in a Baptist Church where a man played his guitar, none electric, and sang some very good hymns, he received several hearty amen's. He did not play his guitar in a country western style, a CCM style, rock & roll style. It sounded just as good as someone who sings a song accompanied by a piano.

Guitar like the piano is a string instrument.

I would think that in many of the early churches before the piano was invented. about 1720, that the guitar was used in churches to sing good old church hymns. Perhaps they even used a harpsichord before the piano came along.

I've never been a member of a church where a guitar was used.

On the subject of music, I fail to understand why so many singers think they have to have many instruments to back them up, many times that will drown out the singing, perhaps that is what they're trying to do, they can't sing good so they think loud music will make it sound good.

The best singing I've heard in the singing of good old church hymns was with a single instrument, piano or guitar without the use of a sound system.

Now if I walked in a church that had many guitars setting around up front, them I would think about leaving, I would be thinking of what some call a praise band which is really nothing but a bunch of worldly music generally played by young boys with long hair that jump around like a rock band.

Drums, they're out. True, many pastors cave in, many may not really know right from wrong.

Those who hold to the KJ seems to be getting few and far between.

Amen, Luke and Jerry.

That's true about the music. Many people today fail to draw a distinction between worship and entertainment. I don't think there's anything wrong with enjoying music as entertainment, but entertainment is not worship. Entertainment brings enjoyment to ourselves, and worship is about bringing praise and glory to God. That's not to say that worship can't be enjoyable, but the focus should be God, not ourselves.

Nailed it on the head, upholder. "Entertainment". People want to be entertained. They have been entertained from infancy, why should church be any different to them?

I believe the issue of dress to be one of the core values. I believe it is necessary for a person to dress their best for the Lord. If I have a suit and tie in my closet and I show up in Church wearing jeans and a polo shirt then in my opinion I am wrong.

I have seen many Churches where the issue of dress has been compromised. It is not unusual at all to see women in Church in skin tight trousers and men in shorts at times. I have even seen it where women get up on the platform and sing, either in the choir or "specials," dressed in trousers. I have also seen men singing with no tie on. To me that is wrong.

I have been in Churches in which it is really impossible to determine if some of the deacons own a neck tie. If they do they don't wear them to Church. Even Sunday school teachers follow that code of dress. I was taught that a teacher wears a tie.

The only way another person can really tell we are a Christian is by the way we conduct our lives. We do not have some kind of tattoo somewhere that says, "Christian." If we come from Church looking like the world what kind of testimony is that? You cannot be separate from the world if you look like them from the start. Of course that really attracts people to the more liberal Churches because they don't have to change. That word change pertains not only to clothing but also the heart.

In Christ,
George

Yes, Amen. Dress is a HUGE value. Find it at all odd that people will dress their best to go before a secular judge but to go to the Eternal Judge’s House they dress like they are going to a night club at best? Where are the women that dress like women? And by the way it was the “praise bands” I was referring to. The Glory and focus is no doubt taken away from God and put on these “Christian rockers”. The focus and number one priority in our daily lives, as servants of God, should be the Lord. Much less in His House on His day. Let me give you a little background though on how Churches going down the emergent path take small steps to get the congregation there.

About four years the Lord led me and my family to leave a small Baptist Church because of the above mentioned falling away of values. The Pastor of this church started down this road by diverting from the Hymnal and projecting contemporary Christian praise music up on a screen. The Piano was abandoned to his son playing the acoustic guitar. [I must be very clear that I have no problem whatsoever with the acoustic guitar. It was the songs that were being preformed.] This I was willing to look past, although it was very bothersome, because the preaching was still pretty solid. But then after a few months of the new music venue, the big change. The pastor gave a two week sermon on why he was changing from the King James Bible to the NKJV.

Needless to say, after much time spent with the Lord I knew it was His will to seek another Church. All it takes are a few seemingly small compromises and in time you have a user friendly Church that does not preach God’s Word in all its fullness.

Oh I almost forgot, one of the last things I was informed of before leaving, was that the Pastor was considering taking “Baptist out of the name. I guess that would have made it the “First Church of Horicon”?

To God be the Glory!!!

Took the words out of my mouth.

Yes the defending attorney knows the importance of appearance, he try's his best to get his client who has broken the law to cut his hair, comb it neatly, shave, wear a suit, to where he will not look like a heathen. The jury look at the nice dressed person much different than the Hells Angel looking person.

But people will go to Jesus' Church dressed as a heathen.

Now, me, I don't dress up because I have to, I do it because I love God and I want to show he respect and I want to please Him.

Amen Jerry,

I know Bro. David Cloud can be a bit hyper-critical but he does have a great book my wife bought called Dressing for the Lord.

http://www.wayoflife.org/files/29b11152c...6-350.html

It is mainly geared twards womens dress but has some things for men as well.

One thing I forgot to mention was my work with addicts. I have worked with many different forms of addiction. Some of the people were right off the streets. Let us say for example that one of the young ladies spent her life as a hootchy girl and that is what she wore to Church because that was all she had. Or by the same token if a man comes in and all he has is jeans and a polo shirt then that is alright too. It is their best.

However what will happen is over time they will change to match up with the other people in the Church. I had a student one time that only came to Church in a pair of khakis and usually some kind of t-shirt. All of a sudden about three or four months in I went in to Church one Sunday morning and there he sat in a brand new three piece suit.

Hopefully God will change the hearts of people so that they have the desire to change outwardly as well as inwardly. However the modern, liberal Churches have become so accepting of the casual style of clothing people won't bother to do their best for the Lord.

The point about the courts was a good one!

In Christ,
George

Thankfully we have an omnipotent God who can see through the outward sentiments and look directly into our hearts. This example you gave reminds me of the poor old widow in Mark 12:42-43. If we do the best we can for God with the means He has provided us, He knows that and is pleased.

I think this is part of the sanctification process. However you sited a very good point:

A very loud and boisterous Church that is right up the road from me is an absolute shame! Many of the men come looking like they are going to a ball game & some of the women are dressed in a very inappropriate fashion. And about half the people walk in with a big old soda or coffee in hand. I have even seen some younger people in gothic/satanic looking dress.

I also think that the leaders of the church play a major role in setting the dress for the rest of the flock. If the Pastor’s or Deacon’s ware Suits & Ties so will the men. If they ware jeans and a button down (as is the case with the above mentioned church) so will the men. Same goes with the Women. If the Pastor’s and Deacon’s wives ware appropriate dresses and skirts so will the rest of the women and so on.

I believe another core value that is often overlooked is being good stewards of the things the Lord has given us. There are many Christian people who think nothing of dropping something on the ground and just leaving it. My goodness, when I used to do campus cleanup at my Church it was not unusual to find the cigarette butts people had dropped in the parking lot next to their cars before entering the Church. I used to find a lot of other trash laying around too.

Let me give you an example of what I am talking of. A few years ago (maybe two or three,) we were attempting to get control of our water bill. The Church has 25 acres a lot of which are landscaped. There is a football field, a baseball field and a softball field as well as other areas such as the front yard. We got a visit from two men from the local city government whose job it was to advise commercial water users. During the conversation they told us that we had the best looking property of any Church or school in the entire city. They said that when people drive down the thoroughfare in front of the Church the condition of the property causes people's heads to turn.

That is when I told them that is an indication we were doing something right. When asked what I meant by that I told them that this was not our property, it was the Lord's. We are merely stewards of the property. I went on to tell them that since the condition of the property caused heads to turn that was an indication we were stewarding the property in the manner the Lord intended us to.

Unfortunately this value has been lost in a lot of places.

In Christ,
George

I ordered that book a week or so ago and I am looking forward to reading it.

Brother George I like to wear a tie for church but I do not like one tied around my neck. For many years I have worn clip on ties, but in recent years I have not been able to find them, but a couple of months ago I found a small tailor shop that has them made as the tailor wears them as well. When we had some foster children, one young girls said when she saw my Sunday Suit, "What you dressed up like that for?"

A book from Sword of the Lord entitled, "Your Clothes say it for you," is a good one for women, written by Elizabeth Rice Handford.

OK, you've got a young woman attending church that knows not how to dress for church, she wears clothes that are very revealing, showing much skin.

So you just let her flaunt her self tempting the men while they're trying the best they can to worship God, not syng nothing to her.

What if you had 2 such women, 3 such women?

What if a visitor or visitors were present and thought she or they were members of this church and this church was allowing this type of dress?

Therea the problem. Just like the rock music, wemen dressing in a revealing manner takes the focus off of God. It is also a temptation from our adversary the devil.

I would assume in a sound church that some of the older women would take these girls aside and explain why it can not go on.

In order to keep this discussion going I have come up with another of what I consider a core value. That is daily reading of and meditating on the Bible.

I believe it extremely important to read the Bible daily. The Bible has something to say about everything. It may take some time to search out the answers but if we are having problems in our lives we can find the answer in God's Holy Word.

The Bible indicates a number of times in Psalms that meditators are rewarded.

I know that when I slack off on my Bible reading and meditation things just don't go well for me.

In Christ,
George

This post was last modified: Mon Jul 06, 2009 02:22 PM by George.