Robert, I'll say just two things to you, if I may. First, let me know what your parish priest says when you tell him that you don't believe in most of his churches ritual. Those anathemas will apply to you. Second, the Hail Mary is said during mass (it certainly was up till 2001) and for you to remain in that church or for any person to remain in any apostate church of any denomination is just down right ludicrous. You've been commanded, as we were, to leave the RCC (Rev. 18:4) but if you refuse to, than you might need to make sure that you are saved and understand also that obedience is required to demonstrate genuine and authentic salvation.

jgb321,

I am not going to tell my Priest that I do not believe all Catholic doctrine because it is none of his business that I do not believe all Catholic doctrine. In the Catholic Church that I attend the Hail Mary Prayer has never been said during Mass all the time that I have been attending that Catholic Church which is since I was a child. If I was not really Born Again and being led by the Holy Spirit would I have dispensed with the unscriptural Catholic doctrines and the unscriptural parts to the Mass?

If someone is not Born Again and not being led by the Holy Spirit they sure would not dispense with the unscriptural Catholic doctrines and the unscriptural parts to the Mass. What it states in Rev. 18:4 is not a requirement for salvation and gaining entrance into Heaven. All of the Fundamentalist and Evangelical preachers that I have heard preach about what is required for salvation and gaining entrance into Heaven have all stated that there is only one requirement for salvation and gaining entrance into Heaven and that is to receive Christ as Savior. Belonging to a Fundamentalist or Evangelical Church is not required for gaining entrance into Heaven. Baptism is not required for gaining entrance into Heaven. And the Sacraments are not required for gaining entrance into Heaven.


If I rededicate my life to Christ every night when I go to bed and ask Him to forgive any sins that I may have committed during the day then I am remaining saved.

Robert, your remark above shows that you accept the inquisition, something that one on another thread did not. You also accept that the RCC has engaged in "homicidal activities." In doing this you are a partaker in those activities. Please see Matthew 23:30

Remember the motto of the RCC is "Semper Eadem, Ever the same"

Has Rome Changed? Here is a quote from Roothaan, one time General of the Jesuits, The Black Pope.

Has Rome Changed? After a visit to the Inquisition office about 1885, Grattan Guinness wrote:

May I suggest you try to obtain one of the following books if you would wish to see what the RCC was like in the 1st part of the 20th century.

Avro Manhattan, Vatican Imperialism in the 20th Century,
Zondervan, Grand Rapids. Sometime in the 1950s

Edmund Paris. The Vatican against Europe Written by a French Catholic and translated from the French. 2nd English edition 1988, Wickliffe Press. In the preface by The REVD. DR ALAN C. CLIFFORD. B.A.. M.Lilt., Ph.D. we read:

Was Peter a Pope? According to RCC teaching peter was elected Pope in 33 and died in 67 AD. For a number of those years we can account for his movements from the scripture, and they were not in Rome. Peter was never Bishop of Rome.

Love in Christ

Davo,

You are wrong. I do not accept the Inquisition as something that was good. Homicidal activity is never good. Why do you state that the Catholic Church will start engaging in homicidal activities again? Individual Catholics engage in homicidal activities like in Northern Ireland.

Robert,

I must ask you if you are actually a Catholic, or is this whole thing a hoax? The reason I say this is because for a Catholic to think that the Hail Mary is not recited at mass, causes me to think either 1 of 2 things. 1) You're not a Catholic. 2) You don't listen or understand what is going on around you during mass.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt but my friend, the Hail Mary is said and you will find it uttered after 'bidding prayers.'

jgb321,

The Hail Mary Prayer has never been said during the Mass in any Catholic Church that I have attended in various States in the United States and that includes the Catholic Church that I attend in the town that I reside in or in the Province of Alberta, Canada.

During the great tribulation the catholic church, or the church that evolves from it, will be reinstituting the beheadings and torturing of christians.

Robert --

I was a Protestant all my life. After years of hating what I thought was the Catholic Faith, I actually studied the Faith, the Early Fathers, the proper interpretations of the Holy Scriptures, and found them to be correct.

I was received into our Lord's Church on Holy Saturday of 2001.

I think I have learned a little bit about Protestantism and also about the Catholic Faith. You are a very confused person right now. Somehow, someone has not done a very good job of showing you from the Holy Scriptures why the Christian Faith is truly expressed in the Catholic understanding.

The word "Catholic" comes from the Greek "katholicos" and it means "universal". That is, the Faith which all believe. To be a Catholic, one must believe that which is universally believed among all others who profess that Faith. That is why Jim and others here are not Catholic. They do not believe those things which are universal. Instead, they have made up their own beliefs -- things like "accepting Jesus" "once saved -- always saved" "justified by faith alone" and other man made ideas that go against what men and women believed for 1500 years until the Reformation.

Robert -- do yourself a favor and come over to Defenders of the Catholic Faith and talk with us. You need to learn the Catholic Faith and you need to see why it is correct from Scripture. Technically, Jim and others are correct. If you are not going to have the whole of the Faith, you would be better getting out than living a lie.

That statement alone means that you are no longer "universal" in your beliefs with everyone else. You are trying to straddle the fence. You need to "Come Home to Rome" and the only way you can do that is to get a good education about the Catholic Faith and why the Sacraments are important to you and your salvation.

Cordially in Christ,


Brother Ed

I think both Robert and Ed need their heads looked at.

My family produced 4 priests and both my father and I have since left and renounced the Roman Church.

My prayer for both you guys would be to do the same.

http://www.excatholicsforchrist.com

I was baptized at birth and raised in the catholic faith

I was BORN AGAIN 12 yrs. ago! Thank you Jesus.

I questioned the catholic teaching in grammer school and searched the Bible and history books to prove their teaching. I was told not to question but to memorize are recite.

TRUTH is what all catholics need to learn. Not what is passed down and rules made up by men (the Pope...yes, he is only a man).

YES- catholics DO believe sinners in purgatory can be saved by prayers from others and the saints in heaven. They believe in indulgances recited over and over to pay (or get credit to get out of there early). LOL.
Sorry...but it's true. Very true.

IF A CATHOLIC BECOMES A TRUELY SAVED PERSON...
their eyes and hearts will be open to the "true" gospel of Jesus Christ (not man's)

IF A CATHOLIC BECOMES BORN AGAIN...
they will want to run...not walk...not sit in a catholic church and listen to such nonsense.

THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE....not catholic teachings.

IF A CATHOLIC IS BORN AGAIN...
they will want to have nothing to do with statues, rosary beads, praying to saints, indulgances, and the like! Where is purgatory mentioned in the Bible? Where is Mary's ascencion? Praying to saints?
I freeze with fear just thinking that I was taught to do such things.

FEAR..............YES, FEAR............THIS is what prevents many catholics from wanting to KNOW the TRUTH...because their loved ones are on the wide road to hell and they do not want to hear the truth. Most of my relatives are unsaved and they think it is terrible that "I push my faith on them." I am trying to witness to them!

It is very hard to witness to a catholic...I'd rather witness to an atheist, sad to say.

TRUTH, HUMILITY....the BLOOD...the BLOOD is what cleanses and the truth shall set you free!

I will post a link that I hope any catholic reading this will look at ...just how the "things" of the catholic church came to be and why.


http://www.fbbc.com/messages/catholic_herisies.htm

Ah, but by continuing to attend and espouse the virtues of the Roman Catholic Church you are giving creedence to their abominations and therefore are supporting them.

Anyone that is truly saved and born again will not continue in that so-called Church. Paul says in Romans 12:2 to be not conformed to this world but be renewed by the transforming of your mind. Your mind (heart) will be conformed to that which it is faced with. If you continue to be in the Roman Catholic church with all of their false doctrines and other ungodly practices you WILL be conformed to their image and not the image of Christ as the Bible tells you.

Your mind (heart) will become conformed to what your senses give it. If you immerse yourself in the Word of God you will not be transformed to the ugliness of that abomination in Rome.

It is tragic to me that anyone who claims to be saved would continue to support the Roman Catholic Church. And regardless of what you SAY, by continuing to fellowship there you are supporting ALL of their garbage. Tha is just the way it is. It matters not how much you try to convince us otherwise.

I don't know if you think you are dealiing with a bunch of grade school children here who are gullible and will believe this drivel or what?

As soon as you walk into one of those places and see an image of Christ and you do not leave immediately you are in sin. Read the Ten Commandments. They have not been eliminated.

In Christ, (Who is NOT still on the cross.)
George

AMEN Brother George.

This "list of human inventions" is a sad pack of lies and distortions. It has been around for about 2 centuries or so. It was recently published by an anti-Catholic bigot by the Name of Lorraine Boettner in his piece of screed called ROMAN CATHOLICISM.

Completely at odds with scripture. St. Paul taught that baptism washes sin away.

Acts22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. That sounds like baptismal salvation to me.

Also sounds like Boettner is a liar.

Once again, a plain and clear lie. Instructions for the baptism of infant children were being given to the Church as early as 115AD. Boettner has borne false witness again. But what's
that when you can trash the Church that you hate?

Again, this is entirely made up of whole cloth. Writings show the sacrificial nature of the Eucharist as early as 115AD.

Wrong again. Writings in the catacombs which date back to the middle and late part of the second century include prayers to believers who have passed on, and requests that those who read the writings pray for the one leaving them there

Ummmmmmmmmmm...what exactly is the problem with this?

This is so nonsensical it is beyond belief. Latin was the common language of the Roman empire. They did not speak Greek, Indian, Urdu, or Aramaic in Rome. Mr. Boettner sure has some strange ideas, doesn't he?

Not that this matters to anti-catholic bigots, but not only do we not "worship" the Blessed Virgin and the saints who have preceeded us, we are forbidden to do so.

We venerate and pay honor to the Cross of our Lord, upon which He paid for our sins.

Wrong again. Fasting goes back much much further than 998. Honestly, did Boettner, in his extreme haste to write nasty stuff about the Church, ever actually READ any secular history of the Church and Her practices?

BTW -- find me any passage in which Jesus condemned fasting. As a pious and devout Jew, obedient to all the Law, Jesus would have fasted on Tuesdays and Thursdays, as was the custom.

Wrong again. Go back and read St. Augustine's writings. You will see tha that the common and universal belief of the Church, both East and West, was that the elements become the very Body and Blood of the Lord. There was never any other belief in the Church. The idea that the elements are not the Body and Blood of the Lord is a pecularity to Protestantism, a man made religion made up in the 16th century by X Catholic rebels against the Church

PS....what doeth the scriptures say in regards to how God views rebellion?

Since Jesus gave to Peter and the apostles the ability to bind and loose sins, doesn't the merest of common sense tell you that in order to forgive sins, they had to hear the sins from the sinner?????

Common sense apparently was not a biggie for Mr. Boettner either.

This is patently untrue also. The Catholic Church consists of 27 different cultural varients of the Faith, such as the Ruthenians, the Copts, the Mar Thoma, the Marionites, the Melkites, etc. All are every bit as Catholic as the Romans. Rome is simply where the headquarters is.found

Wrong again. The unscriptural decrees came from the Protestants who managled the Bible in order to justify their rebellion against the Church our Lord set on earth under the authority of the office of St. Peter. And it doesn't take a genius to look at the doctrinal chaos and confusion in Protestantism to tell that the Holy Spirit was obviously not leading
this charge.

That is because justification is NOT by faith alone. St. James makes it abundantly clear in his epistle that "faith alone" is D*E*A*D. Or would you prefer to finish the work Luther couldn't and strike that book from the canon of the scriptures?

Robert Sungenis was raised a Roman Catholic, left the Church and became a PresbyterianCalvinist minister for almost 20 years, and then returned to the Church. He has written a systematic DESTRUCTION
of the lie that is "faith alone" called NOT BY FAITH ALONE. It runs over 700 pages anduses scripture to show how the Reformers tortured and twisted the scritpures to fool the simple into believing that faith alone could save a person.

Wrong still again. The apocryphal books were in the original KJV 1611 AV. Did you know that? The Reformers took them out because they support certain Catholic doctrines and they were desparately trying to destroy the Church and her teachings.

One more error. Jesus told us in Matthew 16: 18 - 19 that the Church would NEVER be overrun by the gates of hell. How could that happen unless there was an office of leadership which was protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching doctrinal and moral error?

The fact that you are a Trinitarian and orthodox in your understanding of the Trinity and the natures of Christ is specifically because the Catholic Church defended orthodoxy from the heretics like Bishop Arias. Had it not been for the Catholic Church that you despize so much, you would be an Arian heretic and on your way to hell.

I have answered what I could. But just a couple of these answers shows that Lorraine Boettner did not know Church history, did not have a proper understanding of scripture, and for convenience's sake, lied through his teeth in order to lash out at the Catholic Church.

Brother Ed

In the history of the world, the United States has done a lot of very ugly stuff. Not the least is the murder of Indians, the breaking of numerous treaties with them, and their forced resettlement.

The United States also supported racism until the Civil War.

By this reasoning, George, are you implying that anyone who is a citizen of the United States is a supporting racism? Are you suggesting that the official documents of the United States support racism -- documents such as the Constitution and the Bill of Rights?

.

I have found no ungodly teachings in the Catechism of the Church. I have found no false doctrines. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to where they are, for I surely don't see them.

It was the Bible and study of the Bible which led me, along with numerous others, out of Protestant error and into the fullness of the Christian Faith which is the Faith that is called "universal" (Katholicos).

Quite frankly, yes. Your intelligence level is that of about a slug for you to be tricked by Fundamentalist pulpit pounders who distort Christian history, misinterpret the scriptures and twist and distort them to prove "doctrines" which are not in the Holy Scriptures at all.

And then you give proof of your ignorance. The issue of icons was settled in the 9th century in the Council of Nicea II. Men of far greater intellect and spirituality than you and I combined times 10 met in council and hammered out this issue once and for all. The bottom line is that since God set an icon among us in the person of Jesus Christ, who is called "the icon of the living God" in Scripture, then it is not wrong for us to use icons in the New Covenant. There is a New Covenant, remember?

You pride yourself on something you don't even begin to have -- intellect. You and anyone else who has left the Church for Fundamentalist lies and nonsense has been snookered by the spiritual equivalent of a used car salesman in a bad polyester suit.

Shame!!

This is patently untrue. Luther did not invent any of the doctrines of the reformation. He only carried on doctrines which the true church always believed. The true church has always been persecuted by Rome, Pagan and "Christian."

Error did not begin in the 2nd century, but actually in bible times. 2 Thess 2:7. This error was no doubt what later became Romanism.

Ah, but the US repented of her crimes, which was what the civil war was about. Rome has never repented but glorified in her crimes.