http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/r...minian.htm

Read this interesting article..with some good poems at the bottom of page....

Robert

I wonder what a Calvinist will say when he sees an Arminian in heaven..........

I don't really have a problem with Calvinism as much as I have a problem with Arminianism, however, I would say one thing to a Calvinist. You better watch out who you make a judgment against in the case of eternal security.

Whether a man believes salvation is a choice or a sole providence of God in His indeterminable Will, the salvation is still there if biblically adherent. If the father urges(John 6:44) and the man obeys that Will and biblically believes and repents, what does it matter whether that man believes that what happened was either predestination or free-will?

In my opinion, this is a contention not worth separating over.

Now do not get me wrong. In my own heart, I have a problem with the idea of man having something to do with his own salvation. As if he has some sort of will in cause.

If a man sits down and truly thinks on the doctrine of depravity he will gain a picture of mankind wandering this finite life(flesh), in which he has the capability, yet not the right, of doing as he chooses with no immediate recognition of the consequence for his actions. The ultimate consequence of course, being eternal damnation.

Now we see mankind, as the Lord will, receiving salvation and we then see another picture of him going about this life, no longer under the captivity of deprivation, but of the justification by the Lord Jesus Christ. We see a transformed heart under wonderful slavery of salvation. This man of course does not have a "free" will. Yet his heart is more free than it was under loss in damnation adn depravity. He could not see the understanding of it then, yet he does now, and loved being in perfect bondage to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Love in Christ,

Jim

As one that is neither Calvinist or Arminian, may I recomend the reading of John Wesleys, The Question, "What Is an Arminian?" Answered by a Lover of Free Grace? This document, I hope will "demystify" (probably not the right word to use, in light of the topic) the issue somewhat. Note that Arminius produced his arguements to Calvin's doctrine after studying the scripture in order to make comment on it.

I agree with Jim, it is dangerous and "exclusive" to choose a side in this matter. Consider John Bunyan who, as a baptist, cited Martin Luther's "Commentary of tthe Epistle of Galatians" as the only book that he would want, after the Bible, in spite of it declaring the Anabaptists as "fanatics" due to their stance against infant baptism. If he hadn't felt this way about this commentary, would their ever have been a "Pilrim's Progress"?

We are not "choosing sides" here at all..we are simply defending the one true faith, once delivered unto the saints...

For example, this good preacher did not find the truth and the true gospel of God's sovereign grace until after he was already a pastor of a local church!

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.as...4290612122

The lesson here is, we should not trust what our preacher says as gospel truth....just because he is our preacher and a very educated, gifted, qualified "man of God"..etc.

Henceforth know we no man after the flesh..etc.

Robert

Dr. John McKnight is a Calvinistic Methodist, and an excellent speaker!

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.as...0101144947



Here he is speaking in a Reformed Baptist church about the Names of God....

Robert

And so we should learn to not look so much on the "label" as to the content of the speaker's sermons!

This is exactly what I have been trying to preach to people.......

The gospel comes from the Holy Bible, not from Calvinism, not from Arminianism.

Both are to be compared to the Bible, and both are to be governed by it.

Love in Christ,

Jim

May I recomend a hearing of Keith Daniel, as an example of what I mean when I say "not choosing sides"?

His exposition of First John - Part 1 and Part 2 is basically a full recital of "1 John" with comments throughout.

That is exactly my point also. I do not know or understand why someone would want to accept a label such as this.

Let me explain my "affiliation" if that is the proper word for it. (Bearing in mind here I am not saying I am any better than anyone else nor am I in any way near to being perfect.)

I am a Christian first, foremost and always. Secondarily to that I am a very conservative, fundamental, New Testament Baptist. What this means to me is that I completely accept as part of my faith that the Holy Bible is the SOLE authority for both faith and practice. I also believe in a Bible believing, Bible teaching and Bible preaching Church. Because the Church I belong to follows that personal requirement I choose to affiliate with it.

That being said, if my Church ever relaxed that standard I would start looking for a different Church. However my very first obligation and affiliation is with God, through our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ and His Holy Word. My acceptance of Jesus Christ as my personal saviour provided eternal security for me. However, what is in the Bible saved my mortal life. I was in such a state in my life that I got me into hospitals, jails and institutions. It was only through the Bible and doiing my best with a lot of help from the Holy Spirit that I was able to get out of the deep, dark, scary hell-hole I used to call life. For that I am ever grateful and owe my allegiance to God and to no doctrine of man. All of man's ways are flawed.

Granted there are times when the words of men do have merit. There are some really excellent commentaries to consult when stuck in a difficult spot. There is also an excellent dictionary by Noah Webster that is very helpful. Young's Analytical Concordane is also a valuable tool in my Bible study. However books of other things really have no value to me. Why read the words and opinions of a man in order to attempt to learn how to conduct my life when the Bible has something to say about everything? It makes no sense to me.

In my personal opinion both Arminianism and Calvinism are flawed. Parts of them are correct and others not. That is why my dependence on the Bible. I understand there most likely is not such thing as a perfect Church in existance in this world today. However I have found one that I beleive follows the teaching of God's Holy Word better than any other one I have been in. Another great thing to me is that I have a Pastor that from observation and friendship with him shows me that he lives what he preaches.

In Christ,
George Groce

I am very excited to see others that believe in the fundamentals of the faith that do not declare that they are either arminian or calvinist. That is where I stand- Only on the promises of God.

Are there any other ladies that have the same doctrinal beliefs?

Yes, many try to find some "neutral ground"...but when the true gospel is preached, it is always based on God's Electing Love and Eternal Good Pleasure
to save His chosen people from all over the world....known as God's Elect.

http://www.truecovenanter.com/gospel.html

regards

Robert

2 Timothy 2:19  ......Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Oh brother, I followed a link that you posted some time ago. I am so ashamed that I did not follow it earlier. The prayer at the beginnig of it was so greatly and so humbly done. I was moved strikingly by the words of the man praying. It is no accident I listened to it today. I needed to hear it. I needed it greatly. Thank you so much for leading me to it. My tears are shed in shame.

His exposition of First John - Part 1 and Part 2 is basically a full recital of "1 John" with comments throughout.

This is the portion I am referring to. I do n ot know how to make it another link but those interested can listen to it if they go back to your post. Thank you again for the link and for reminding me that I am nothing without Him.

In Christ,
George Groce

I also strive to rely on scripture alone for forming doctrine and worldview. I do find myself sometimes getting caught up in man's opinions though. It is better for me to not look much to study helps as I tend to get confused at times. If I do not understand a passage in the Bible, I will pray for guidance and understanding and either read it again or go back to it at another time. I am usually at a loss when anyone wants to kow what 'denomination' I am or whose teachings I lean towards as I am not well educated in protestant history. It is discouraging at times that saying I am a Christian is not clear enough.

MrsM, I am glad to meet you here, another lady who is 'just a Christian', nothing extra needed!

Laura

Robert, are you saying that Calvinism dictates God's Word? That the bible is to be governed and read by Calvinisms outline?

I am by no means refuting Calvinism. However, I am also saying that if the reading of God's Word leads you to the doctrines of Grace, like it has myself, then I am ready to accept it. However, if the reading of God's Word leads you to the idea that salvation is a gift from God and all we have to do is receive it, then I am ready to accept that too.

Calvinism is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ, the Word of God, is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

When I think of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I know that the Lord sought me. I know in God's ineffibly Holy Will, he drew me to come to Him. I know I am an unworthy sinner who, from nothing of myself, obtained salvation by God's ordinance. I did nothing to deserve it as I only deserve Hell. I am justified only through Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.

Am I totally depraved? Yes I am
Was I unconditionally elected? If God willed it, I am.
Was I predetermined before the foundation of the earth to have salvation? According to Gods Word I was, for he knew and knows all things, for He IS God.
Will I claim that I had no choice in the matter of my salvation whatsoever? I don't know how to answer that question.

Knowing God's sovereignty, omniscience, and omnipotence, I cannot say that He did not foreordain me for His pleasure aforetime. I also at this time cannot say that He offered me a gift and I received it of my own choice according to His grace. Could I have effectively resisted His will according to my salvation? I don't think so. I know I can resist His will now, but there definitely is consequences. He allows me to be in either His directive will or permissive will, I do have a choice in that matter, and that choice will invariably affect my walk with Him. So according to that, there is only one really true option I have, and that is to obey Him and remain in His directive will.

Now, before you say anything, yes, this coincides quite close with doctrines of grace. This is my belief according to God's Word. These beliefs were formed into me by the Holy Spirit before I even knew the definition of Calvinism. That is why I do not choose to have myself either aligned with, or labeled as, a Calvinist.

On the same token, I do not agree with the doctrine itself of Arminianism. But I cannot say that a man himself who is an Arminian, cannot give the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I have met some Arminians that have a wonderful zeal and truth of the knowledge of the sovereignty of God, and preach it also. Because these men understand that the Gospel of Jesus Christ comes from Gods Word, not the basis of mans doctrinal statement concerning Gods Word.

I just have that problem with labels, I can't escape it. If a man wants to refute a doctrinal viewpoint, then refute the belief, not the label.

I have a problem with anyone stating that an Arminian will lead someone to Hell, or a methodist, baptist, reformed, or presbyterian will lead someone to hell. The divisions of the body of Christ right now is in confusion. It is not in peace with itself. It is not the denomination that will lead someone to Hell, it is the giver, or instrument by which the gospel is given can be the problem. If the trumpet is giving an uncertain sound will this affect the giving of the gospel? Yes it most certainly will. The gospel must be given truthfully, purely, as directed by the Holy Spirit, without error, and without human intervention. It is by God alone that the Gospel is given in absolute truth.

I think it is actually wonderful to think that some Calvinists will see an Arminian in heaven because obviously that Arminian was of the elect.
The elect is dictated by God's Will, not by the doctrine of Calvinism. This in and of itself is kind of ironic.

***I want to say something though that has had the most profound effect on my life all other things aside. The doctrines of grace and Gods ultimate sovereignty is perfectly powerful and terrible. The thought of His eternal Godhead is awe-striking. It is almost incommunicable His federal headship and Godhead. He is so ineffibly Holy, I stand in wonderment many, many times. He is Holy, mighty, perfect, and majestic, words cannot express my utmost respect for His deity and Godhead. If these attributes of our Eternal God and sovereign are not enough to completely humble us and make us tremble in His presence, then nothing ever will. He is worthy to be praised and adored. He alone is worthy.

The only way God can get glory from us is to be totally submersed, and immersed within his sovereign will and obedience therein.

May His might be revealed to us according to His glory and perfection, for His worthiness, that we may adore Him.

Love in and through Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour,

Jim

I believe that we as Christians are classified as either ARminian or Calvinist. I do not agree with Calvin in totality, but I have grown to accept the label. Although, there are very few that agree in fullness with either one of the two. Nonetheless, we have allowed the terms Arminian and Calvinist to take on a generalized classification. A person that is classified as a Calvinist does not necessarily have to agree with John Calvin in all points, but it is understood to mean that the person believes in Sovereign Grace. Whereas a person that is labled as an Arminian may not necessarily agree with Arminius in all points but is often considered someone that believes in autonomy or Free Will.

just some rambling..........

I will have to disagree. Any other label or classification other than "Christian" is unchristian. it is being a follower of Paul, of Cephas, etc...

Love in Christ,

Jim